Timing the market with wire transfers from New Zealand - are prices locked in on initiating payment?

IndividualFreedomIndividualFreedom Posts: 12 Tin ✭
edited July 2016 in About Goldmoney
Hi from New Zealand
- Huge fan of bitgold and Peter Schiff - hope you don't mind me asking questions that may or may not unveil some disadvantages of the deposit system and withdrawal system at bitgold compared to other systems.
- Even if you confirm all of the drawbacks I suspect to be true it will not stop me from investing heavily in bitgold as the best option for me. Let me explain my question:

I guess to summarise my inquiry, I am comparing this system to an online exchange website where you hold funds on the website in NZD as well as gold and can time the market etc. instantly and get in and get out without paying wire transfer fees (i.e. paying a trading fee but avoiding the movement of currency through an expensive wire transfer system every time you get in and get out).

Buying gold:
==========
1) Wire transfer fees
- I am from New Zealand and as such will pay a $15 wire transfer fee from my bank.
- Could I also be subject to fees from other intermediary banks (maybe another $20 on top)?

[[By no means a deal-breaker but would change my investment behavior to sending larger sums on a less regular basis to average out this larger fixed cost per wire transfer. I can accept this cost because any other international competitors selling physical bullion also require that I pay this fee! ]]

2) Timing the market
- If I were to see that the spot price of gold has dropped to an attractive price, this would influence me to buy at that moment.
- However, I am afraid that when I initiate say a $3000 deposit (minus $15-35 of fees) that the spot price may go up very sharply in the 2-3 business days that it takes for my payment to arrive and I will be left paying a higher price than intended.
- Is this a risk that I am taking with bitgold? OR alternatively...
- Are prices locked in at the initiation of the wire transfer (obviously as long as payment is subsequently honoured)?

3 Depth of order book and true spot price
- Without being able to see the depth of the order book I don't see how you can guarantee a given price for my order (e.g. in the extreme case, if I purchased $100 million at the market price it would clear out the order book and push the average spot price very high).
- (This is where I am finding a possible area that lacks in transparency with the final price / gram compared to an online exchange where you see the entire depth of the order book) -- Again this is less of a concern for me because I am a little fish and will have negligible influence on the price but I think maybe you could look at implementing a live order book from wherever you derive your spot price purchases - e.g. show the order book for each respective vault and guarantee whatever price is calculated at the time of initiating a wire transfer? ]] * Maybe this is why you limit the maximum account size... so you can garauntee whatever price you quote on deposit + fees??

Selling gold:
==========
In the same vein I would like it if I could sell my gold bullion back to NZD when gold prices are high but avoid having to pay a large wire transfer fee in order to do so.
- Will you perhaps add the facility to hold onto my NZD currency balance in canada so I can buy and sell avoiding the wire transfer fees?
- Is this possible or is it that case that I will need to sell my gold + 1% fee + wire transfer fees every time I sell my gold.
- [[(This is okay - Will not stop me investing - Would just mean I do it in more infrequent, larger chunks and never for moving smaller amounts).]]

Any clarification or information will be much appreciated. I really would like a hypothetical example with e.g. $100,000 bought and sold from New Zealand to illustrate all possible/likely fees and even possible slippage with clearing out sellers of the order book. Also any plans for future development of features that may mitigate some of these drawbacks (if what I say is accurate).

I love what you guys are doing. I believe that central banks and money printing must be abolished and gold / silver is the best form of sound money. Keep up the good fight!

Kind Regards

Answers

  • 79Au19779Au197 Posts: 4,047 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    @IndividualFreedom
    checkout https://www.goldmoney.com (the original GoldMoney, soon to be rebranded Goldmoney Wealth)

    With BitGold your price is locked in, but what you see is the BBO average, not the actual price you will get.
    See http://support.bitgold.com/customer/en/portal/articles/1871471-aurum-and-gold-pricing

    Yes knowing the bid / ask points would be a big plus.
  • 79Au19779Au197 Posts: 4,047 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    @IndividualFreedom

    PS welcome to the community
  • nigelmarkdiasnigelmarkdias Posts: 1,323 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    Even if you confirm all of the drawbacks I suspect to be true it will not stop me from investing heavily in bitgold as the best option for me.
    @IndividualFreedom
    Welcome to the community. :)
  • Adrian45Adrian45 Posts: 11 Tin ✭
    @IndividualFreedom I am an Australian and bought gold with Bitgold. 22 days ago, I sold gold and requested it to sent to my bank, 22 days later I still have not received it. When I call the them, the phone never answers except for a recorded message. I have sent numerous emails without response. Of the 1 message I did get, I was told they put a Trace on it. Whether they did or not, who knows, certainly not me. Have I lost my money through carelessness or some other, I don't know. Personally, I would look at some other way of buying gold. GoldMoney has good service and a longer record of business. Something I can't understand is, Bitgold bought them out. The mind boggles. Anyway, they run completely different. Much more professional. Should I ever get my money, lesson learnt.
  • MelanieMelanie Posts: 1,045 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Adrian45 I can appreciate your frustration leading to multiple comments about this, but as noted in both my email response to you and response here on the Community, if I had received any new information from the bank you would have been updated, but I have not.

    Have you left a voicemail message when calling in? Due to time differences you are likely calling us out of office hours, which is why we make the voicemail option available. We are very sorry to have missed you by phone, but unfortunately our agents would not have had any new information for you.

    Once we send a wire, it is up to the banking system to get it from point A to point B. I have been chasing the bank for more information, but when a trace takes this long, it is likely that information is being obtained from the receiving bank.
  • Adrian45Adrian45 Posts: 11 Tin ✭
    @Melanie I have called several times during your business hours, and have left Voicemail messages, without receiving a reply.
    If the calls were out of hours, then the automated voice should not be saying "Your call is important to us . . . etc" periodically.

    How long must I wait before contacting you again?
  • MelanieMelanie Posts: 1,045 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have just checked up on our voicemail return call tracking and it looks like our agents have tried to call back during convenient hours for your timezone, but did not get a hold of you. Very sorry that we missed you, but as I mentioned, until the bank gets back to us with more information there is no additional information that we would be able to convey. I know that this is frustrating on both ends, but unfortunately the delay is on the banking side, which we have very little influence over once sent. They move at a slightly slower pace than we do, it seems.
  • IndividualFreedomIndividualFreedom Posts: 12 Tin ✭
    edited July 2016
    @Adrian45 If this is the case with massive delays then this could influence my decision to invest here. At least with my previous physical shipments to NZ I know that it will arrive as promised and I know exactly what the fees will be with certainty (i.e. $15 for wire transfer) - there is nothing I hate more that lining the pockets of banks for wire transfer fees (even if it is buying gold to get away from the corrupt system we are all living in). Let me know how you get on dude. Also what were the wire transfer fees? Was there extra charges for intermediary banks or just one fee of $15-20. I am trying to calculate how much in fees I should expect to be stung with from the wire transfer. My bank charges $15 but I'm worried that there could be an unknown extra quantity like $20 extra from intermediaries
  • 79Au19779Au197 Posts: 4,047 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    @IndividualFreedom apologies if you mentioned this before … are you also Australian?
  • IndividualFreedomIndividualFreedom Posts: 12 Tin ✭
    If you read the first line of my post you will have your answer. But no I am not also simultaneously an Australian citizen if that is what you are asking
  • MelanieMelanie Posts: 1,045 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    @IndividualFreedom To clarify, the delays that are being seen here are very much outside of the normal experience. Most users receive their funds quite promptly, on the shorter side of the 1-5 business days outlined for international bank wire transfers.
  • Adrian45Adrian45 Posts: 11 Tin ✭
    @Melanie No missed calls are showing on my phone in regards to call backs. If a Bank Trace cannot find the money transfer, then it could be on the end of Bitgold initiating the transfer in that it never reached the bank for the transfer.
  • 79Au19779Au197 Posts: 4,047 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
  • MelanieMelanie Posts: 1,045 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Adrian45 The funds have in fact been sent, as has been confirmed with you. The issue appears to be on the receiving end, otherwise our bank would be able to report on any issues experienced on their end.
  • Adrian45Adrian45 Posts: 11 Tin ✭
    @melanie I have contacted my bank and they have not received any funds from your bank. I have made the transfers from Goldmoney to the same account and they came through in less than 2 days. Could please send me the relevant info (from the bank and Bitgold) regarding the transfer. The money is somewhere, but not in my account. As you say, it appears, but that is only a supposition. Please provide facts.
  • IndividualFreedomIndividualFreedom Posts: 12 Tin ✭
    edited July 2016
    So.... Anyone here from New Zealand who can tell me what the wire transfer fee costs in total from NZ banks to Gold money? Is it $15 or a larger amount. This basically decides if it makes any sense for me to purchase from GoldMoney OR if I should buy physical (that I hold in my own possesion) at almost the same price (for a $15 total wire transfer fee) with no counterparty risk.
    - When I say "almost the same cost" what I mean is that if I calculate the round trip cost of 1% in and 1% out + $15-35 in and $15-35 on the way back out to NZD. It would cost almost the same amount to just have bought and held physical gold/silver... so the wire transfer fee is really important for me to know and I don't want to waste a decent sum of money to just test it and find out. Would rather just hear from a fellow New Zealander who has transferred some funds and knows what it ended up costing. (You can still get free shipping to New Zealand for over $6000 worth of gold/silver for those wondering about why I am not including the shipping costs associated with buying physical)
  • kboxkbox Posts: 22 Copper ✭✭
    edited August 2016
    Ok, I am not from NZ, but Australia. From Australia I can purchase gold by using POLi. Perhaps this is available to you in NZ. This payment method connects directly to local Australian Banks and is available on the GoldMoney website (not available through the Mobile App).

    You have navigate to Deposit > Additional Options > Next > More > Next > Select Vault > Next > Enter Amount (change to AUD and if you are lucky NZD) > Process. This will save you you the wire transfer fee at least one way.
  • Jim_RedtailJim_Redtail Posts: 9 Tin ✭
    So I checked my account the other day to see the price of gold, it had been a while. $50.99 cdn/g is what the main page was telling me, so I went ahead and purchased some. When I saw the details of the transaction, it was $51.28/g that I was charged, even though the main screen never showed that high of a price.

    I know it’s only a few cents but if this standard practice, I’ve been robbed for quite a few years. I’ve always enjoyed watching the daily price fluctuate. But it doesn’t matter what you show on the site, it seems you’ll charge whatever you want. 🤷🏻‍♂️
  • RocketDogRocketDog Posts: 696 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    Hi @Jim_Redtail. I believe Goldmoney has published some support articles on how the gold is priced. There is also a price difference for each vault. The Toronto vault is one of the more expensive ones.
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