Goldmoney as an alternative to the banking system

WadeWade Posts: 14 Tin ✭
Can I buy gold directly from a participating vault and then have it credited to my Goldmoney account? I would like to avoid any fees associated with transferring money through JP Morgan Chase BK for deposit into the Royal Bank of Canada. I don't trust the banking system which I thought this platform was created to help people bypass.

Comments

  • RocketDogRocketDog Posts: 603 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    Do you mean a cash purchase? Like walk up to the Toronto office with a bundle of cash and then have the gold show up in the vault in your holding account?
    Because currently we transfer cash (dollars or whatever) from a bank and buy the gold and it shows up in a vault and in our Goldmoney holding account. So that is already happening. If you use an ACH transfer (or some other electronic version -- depending on where you are) you can avoid the fees associated with wire transfer. It kind of depends on your situation, there may be ways to minimize your fees.
    You probably have to add some more details about where you are. You might want to talk to support directly if you don't want to air your details in a public forum.
    I do think the Toronto office, when opened, might be able to accept a stack of dollar bills? (@Melanie?)
  • UvasUvas Posts: 667 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    That is a good question @RocketDog, I know several goldbugs that would like to hear an answer to that :)
  • RocketDogRocketDog Posts: 603 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    @Uvas I think you are right. If somebody really wants to avoid a "Follow the Money" trail to Goldmoney, then a physical cash transaction would help.

    I really liked the article recently posted that explained that our "Holding" does not have to be declared (in USA tax forms) because it is a physical gold holding not a bank account. Also that the office in Jersey (Channel Islands) have the information about customers, not the vault, so if the vaults were subpoenaed by some government entity they would not be able to tell where the anyone's gold is, even if they wanted to (which they don't). And Jersey is very resistant to releasing the information as well.

    That thread is here: Read down to the entry by @Majes, response by James Turk.
    community.goldmoney.com/discussion/2576/what-about-this-from-f90221-that-must-be-filed-with-the-irs-is-this-acurate#latest
  • nigelmarkdiasnigelmarkdias Posts: 1,323 Silver ✭✭✭✭
  • GoldIsCurrencyGoldIsCurrency Posts: 1,770 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    @nigelmarkdias I have to agree, I don't see cash deposits happening. However I presume we never know.
  • WadeWade Posts: 14 Tin ✭
    Thanks all. I will explore your suggestions.
  • RocketDogRocketDog Posts: 603 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    The AML rules in USA usually require a transaction of $5,000 or more, or an obvious appearance of structuring, or origin in certain "suspect" countries. They also refer to financial institutions and banks. I wonder if we can avoid that because we are purchasing gold and putting it into a holding?
    I mean, does a car dealership have to report someone that pays cash for a car? I don't know? Do they? What if you pay cash for a house? If you draw a large cashier's check to pay for a house or a car I am sure the bank has to report that. But what if you went in with a stack of bills or a few gold bars? We can't really have freedom if the government tracks our every monetary move. What business is it of theirs? Even the crime-fighting aspects of the Bank Secrecy Act seem like we're giving up too much information for the occasional arrest.

    Is your country suspect? Click the link below to find out.
    fatf-gafi.org/countries/#high-risk
  • nigelmarkdiasnigelmarkdias Posts: 1,323 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    fatf-gafi.org/countries/#high-risk
    That's an excellent resource @RocketDog Thank you for sharing it.
  • RocketDogRocketDog Posts: 603 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    Do you think that maybe the "High-risk" category is politically slanted? I mean, how does Nigeria not make that list with all their internet schemes and catfishing and money laundering?
  • WadeWade Posts: 14 Tin ✭
    Goldmoney response:

    Wade Bowers
    Subject: Goldmoney alternative to the banking system
    AUG 25, 2016 | 01:48PM EDT
    Kayo replied:
    Hi Wade,
    Unfortunately, you cannot buy directly from a participating vault and have it credited to your account. We still must adhere to stringent “Know You Customer” and “Anti-Money Laundering” regulations in order to maintain the integrity of our platform, therefore we cannot “bypass” the banking system.
    Our platform provides and alternative to keeping your saving in a traditional bank in FIAT currency.
    If you have any further questions or comments, please let us know!
    Regards,

    Kayo
    Customer Success Representative

    My reply:
    Hi Kayo,

    As a Goldmoney customer the"Know Your Customer" requirement has already been met. Additionally, the vaults themselves are tasked with ensuring AML compliance. So I don't see how your response applies.

    You appear to be citing the mandatory use of the corrupt banking system as the mechanism to guard against the corrupt practice of money laundering, which they do themselves.

    You should probably rethink my suggested approach towards circumventing the Fiat money houses entirely. Otherwise, it may be assumed that Goldmoney is in fact another tool to smoke out the last vestige of alternative thinking investors by revealing their gold purchases to JP Morgan Chase and the RBC. This negates your website's purported benefit of anonymity by maintaining records at your Jersey office, separate from the vaults.

    Any gold purchase made directly at a participating AML vault should be allowed to be credited to my metals savings at Goldmoney. This is a logical and fully AML compliant alternative approach. The current structure would link my bank to JP Morgan Chase, the RBC, Goldmoney, Jersey, the vault and Mastercard, requiring the confidentiality of no less than 7 entities.

    Please take this to the board or whomever and think it over thoroughly before responding.
  • RocketDogRocketDog Posts: 603 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    Whenever the world doesn't work as we think it should we do need to start asking "Why?" just as @Wade is doing here.
    Then we can propose some hypothesis while waiting for the answer.

    1) Goldmoney is trying hard, going above and beyond, in KYC and AML over-compliance to not become the next haven for illegal activity (as Bitcoin gets a reputation for) -- a good strategy to help ensure that government regulators will not be alarmed and that they will have a sustainable business model?

    2) KYC / AML legislation is more invasive than we are aware of, and though the letter of the law requires less, in practicality the government bullies are holding financial organizations to a higher standard, everyone is afraid and compliant?

    3) What Wade said, Goldmoney (at least the poor man's accounts) are already part of the establishment and we're being set up to eventually lose our money through a gold grab which was probably planned during the Johnson administration (USA replacement of Pres Kennedy--RIP)?

    4) The greedy, money-grubbing reptiles are already on board at Goldmoney?

    5) Something else we haven't thought of?

    No offense meant to Goldmoney, their leaders, or their policies or platforms. I think it is a great system -- assuming it is independent of reptiles, and I know the regulations, government and mafia pressures are really intense. This is all just a little exercise in logic. It is very hard not to be cynical about every money-related plan offered these days, we're all a bit chapped.
  • RocketDogRocketDog Posts: 603 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    @Melanie did you quote the right paragraph in your response to Wade?
    How does this:
    "Our Goldmoney Personal and Business Corporate By-Laws require that we must buy or sell assayed and stamped .995 pure (99.5%) or better bullion-grade gold for the benefit of customers from an approved list of refiners and assayers whose gold meet the minimum specification set by the London Bullion Market Association (LBMA) or New York Mercantile Exchange division Commodity Exchange, Inc. (COMEX)."

    ...have anything to do with purchasing that fine quality gold with a pile of cash instead of a bank transfer?

    (Now I am beginning to suspect reptiles.)

    Though I did come up with another option:
    6) Insurance requirements are more stringent than actual KYC/AML requirements, which is often the case.
  • RocketDogRocketDog Posts: 603 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    Thank you for clarifying @Melanie.
  • nigelmarkdiasnigelmarkdias Posts: 1,323 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2016
    "Just a team of people who work extremely hard and have taken multiple measures to demonstrate transparency and trust,"
    @Melanie
    Well said, Melanie :)
  • RocketDogRocketDog Posts: 603 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    As to the question that I and @Uvas posed, "Is it possible to buy gold from Goldmoney with a pile of cash?" I think the answer is definitely not. And that would be for the reason that Wade alluded to--and perhaps stated too harshly. That there is an inherent "follow the money" system in which we are being forced to participate. For whatever reason, be it just because that is how to gain the widest compliance, or some other reason.
    I think this makes people suspicious -- through no fault of Goldmoney, whom I do believe is really trying to provide an honest, useful, sustainable, valuable service. Unfortunately, the "Alternative to Banks" seems suspiciously "bank-like" due to the association of banks to every purchase of gold made at Goldmoney. But maybe that is the best we can do for now. And if the gold we purchase remains ours to use then in the end it may not matter.
  • 79Au19779Au197 Posts: 4,047 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    @RocketDog - I would be VERY careful in assuming that the IRS will not consider your "Holding" to be a foreign financial asset. I argued this once myself, but @SpontaneousOrder has convinced me otherwise. Please read through the thread
    http://community.goldmoney.com/discussion/793/us-tax-requirements-for-bitgold-personal-opinion

    Bottom Line - Consult a Tax Professional
  • 79Au19779Au197 Posts: 4,047 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Wade I use ACH to routinely move funds between my Chase account and my Goldmoney account at no cost. There are also credit cards available that provide sufficient cash back % to cover the Goldmoney fees.
  • 79Au19779Au197 Posts: 4,047 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    @nigelmarkdias @Melanie

    Worth repeating …

    "Just a team of people who work extremely hard and have taken multiple measures to demonstrate transparency and trust,"
  • 79Au19779Au197 Posts: 4,047 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Wade @RocketDog

    Goldmoney (formerly BitGold) was established to provide a global platform to allow people around the word to adopt their own Personal Gold Standard while working within the confines of global law and regulations. This truly heculean task has failed many times prior to Goldmoney, yet through amazingly hard work Goldmoney has succeeded.

    In my opinion the only effective way to be outside of the banking and regulatory system would be to exclusively buy gold in cash from pawn shops and flea markets "No Questions Asked" and the bury it in various locations known only to you. Many folks subscribe to this idea so I am not suggesting anything new.

    For me personally I find that the Goldmoney goal of making gold useful again as money has value to me.
  • WadeWade Posts: 14 Tin ✭
    @Melanie, A big thank you to Goldmoney for your dedication to answering questions in detail. I guess it's just hard for me to believe that there is finally a really independent investment alternative to the suffocating controls foisted on the average person. To be clear, I believe Goldmoney is worth trying out. It has so many virtues that one must give it a shot. Additionally, you can never be fully informed about something unless you interact with it. So on that basis, I have begun my journey with Goldmoney by asking tough questions.

    To be fair, my reference to Goldmoney as "another tool...", (of control) was preceded by the words, "Otherwise, it may be assumed that...". The context is important because I did not suggest that it is, but only that it could be misconstrued as such a tool. The requirement to use the same system that gave us the economic crisis is a bit disheartening as you can imagine.

    Also, I am not asking you to "simply modify the rules and processes for one person", but to begin the discussion and subsequent review by Goldmoney on the potential merits of reducing the paper trail, which would benefit all Goldmoney customers. I acknowledge all the current successes your hard work has achieved. I just thought I saw room for enhancement. My Apologies for having been so direct, although I didn't call you guys reptiles @RocketDog wink: .

    Unfortunately, your agent did write that adhering to KYC & AML required the use of the banking system. I Just expounded on the fact that the system you are bound to use for these purposes applies a double standard. This, of course is no fault of Goldmoney but just an observation. And Bylaws can be revised to incorporate new and innovative ways of doing business.

    Finally, I again thank you for your response and apologize for my straight forward style of writing. I hope to remain a customer of Goldmoney well into the future as it appears to be the best savings and investment platform currently available.
  • UvasUvas Posts: 667 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    Goldmoney is not a place to hide your value from government. It is not a cryptocurrency.

    It is a place to trade in your fiat for gold to protect value.

    I was just curious if an option for paying in cash would be available in the future. Like at a physical outlet. I am no lawyer, so I thought that adding cash to your account meant that you are known. Maybe even showing ID or something when you deposit.
  • MelanieMelanie Posts: 1,045 Gold ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Wade Not to worry, feedback and suggestions are always appreciated, and I hope I was able to provide some added clarity!
  • RocketDogRocketDog Posts: 603 Silver ✭✭✭✭
    "Suspected reptiles" and only to spice up the discussion. ;)
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